Chi Alpha @ Wright State Forum Index General Once-saved-always-saved?
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Re: Once-saved-always-saved? | #2 |
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--The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.
Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord-- Acts 11:22-23 ************************************************** This next passage is about Paul and Barnabus --After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God"-- Acts 14:22-23 Why all of this encouragement to continue in the faith if once you are saved you're always saved? ************************************************** --Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.-- 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (like Luke 8:13 and the rocky soil) ************************************************** --I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel-- Galatians 1:6 Written to believers in danger of falling away due to Judaizers who were trying to nullify the cross by adding rules and restrictions to the gospel. Paul shows great concern here for them. ************************************************** --work out your salvation with fear and trembling-- Philippians 2:12 and just a few verses later, Paul encourages them to keep --holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain-- Philippians 2:16 Paul was watching over them as a caring, concerned spiritual father because he did not want them to fall away from the faith. ************************************************** --that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead-- Philippians 3:10-13 Passages like this show that Paul, who penned so much of the New Testament, would not seem to agree with eternal security advocates. ************************************************** --But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons-- 1 Timothy 4:1 ************************************************** --give the enemy no occasion for reproach; for some have already turned aside to follow Satan-- 1 Timothy 5:14-15 ************************************************** --For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.-- 1 Timothy 6:10 ************************************************** --For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths-- 2 Timothy 4:3-4 ************************************************** ************************************************** --For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it-- Hebrews 2:1 ************************************************** ************************************************** --Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end-- Hebrews 3:12-14 ************************************************** ************************************************** --Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.-- Hebrews 10:35-39 (just FYI-- the NASB capitalizes New Testament Scripture that quotes the Old Testament) ************************************************** ************************************************** --Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.-- Revelation 2:10 If we are going to make it to Heaven, we must be faithful. This doesn't mean we're perfect (after all, we're going from glory to glory as it says in II Corinthians 3:18), but we must hold on to our faith so that we will keep eternal life. Other good passages to read on this; -- Luke 12:35-49 -- Matthew 24:45-51 -- Matthew 18:21-35 along with Matthew 6:15 -- Matthew 25:1-13 and vs 14-30 |
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"Sound the alarm Gather the people Gather the elders Let the ministers wail God take back the years that the enemy's stolen Lord You are coming with a holy visitation" from 'Holy Visitation' "Fasting; it's a feast for the soul." |
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Posted on: 2009/12/14 18:18
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Re: Once-saved-always-saved? | #3 |
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Here are many of the verses many supporters of once-saved-always saved use:
--My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.-- John 10:27-29 The original Greek is in the present tense. In other words, the only ones who qualify for the blessings in this passage include those who are following Him, not those who have ever followed at any given time and have since fallen away. And it also doesn't say anything about wandering from the faith or going astray, as many verses warn against. --Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.-- Romans 8:35-39 There is nothing in here referring to salvation. It does not say nothing can separate us from the salvation of God. Yes, God loves the whole world. John 3:16 is probably the most well-known passage in the entire Bible. For God so loved the world... but does that mean the whole world is saved? Neither can this passage in Romans be referring to salvation. ************************************************** --For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.-- Philippians 1:6 This was written as an encouragement to believers in Philippi, but take a look at the previous 3 verses: --I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.-- Philippians 1:3-5 They were keeping the faith and bearing fruit, and as with all of his letters he encouraged them to keep doing what they were doing so that they would make it to Heaven on Judgment Day. see Philippians 1:9-10 The bottom line is this; our salvation is conditional. Time and time again Scripture attests to this. Leonard Ravenhill put it this way: "Keep this in mind from an old man; there is no finality to the Christian life on this side of eternity. We pray that some of us may attend our own funeral tonight and die to self." ************************************************** --Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.-- 1 Peter 1:3-5 Reserved in Heaven, yes. But like a dinner reservation you can choose not to show up. See Luke 14:16-24 Also, it is protected by God through faith. Hence the many warnings to not wander from the faith. ************************************************** --for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable-- Romans 11:29 This is taken out of context because the whole chapter is about Israel not being cast away, for God still has plans for them after they rejected Christ. (Romans 11:11-12) This is not referring to an impossibility of losing one's salvation. ************************************************** --"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."-- John 6:39-40 Yes, it is the will of the Father to not lose any of His sheep. And 2 Peter 3:9 says God does not want any to perish but for all to come to repentance. Unfortunately His will does not always come to pass. ************************************************** --In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.-- Ephesians 1:13-14 Similar to 1 Peter 1:3-5 a few lines above, this is a promise of a future event that has yet to be fulfilled./[b] ************************************************** --Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.-- John 5:24 [b]The Greek word for 'believe' used here, pisteuo, is in the present participle tense. This tense expresses continuous, repeated action. In other words, as long as one continues to believe and not stop, he or she has eternal life. ************************************************** --Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.-- Hebrews 7:25 The Greek tense for 'draw' is the same as John 5:24 ************************************************** --For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified-- Hebrews 10:14 Same explanation as the two previous verses. Any other verses that may seem to advocate once-saved-always-saved must be taken as a whole in regard to the rest of the Bible. Just like in Luke 14:26 when Jesus says we must hate our family and our own life in order to be His disciple, it cannot be taken literally because of the context and the fact that He commands us to love (John 13:34). |
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"Sound the alarm Gather the people Gather the elders Let the ministers wail God take back the years that the enemy's stolen Lord You are coming with a holy visitation" from 'Holy Visitation' "Fasting; it's a feast for the soul." |
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Posted on: 2009/12/14 18:22
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Re: Once-saved-always-saved? | #4 |
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But keep this in mind; I am not advocating a works-based salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus is the only way, truth, and the life. He is the only reason I will live forever. Even the apostle Paul in Romans 7 said how he despised his sinful condition and stressed his need for a Savior. It's the struggle within when I mess up that lets me know the Holy Spirit resides within me; that there is a struggle between darkness and light, and the darkness leaves when I repent and go from glory to glory, for darkness and light cannot coexist.
And it's only by knowing I am loved that I am able to keep the commandments. John 15:1-9 (NASB) 1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. |
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_________________
"Sound the alarm Gather the people Gather the elders Let the ministers wail God take back the years that the enemy's stolen Lord You are coming with a holy visitation" from 'Holy Visitation' "Fasting; it's a feast for the soul." |
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Posted on: 2009/12/14 18:43
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Re: Once-saved-always-saved? | #5 |
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What did the church fathers who lived before Nicea have to say about this doctrine? They were the closest generations to the original apostles and in some cases were discipled by those who were instructed by the apostles.. I have an interesting book called A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs which is a reference guide to more than 700 topics discussed by the early church leaders.
--and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.-- Acts 6:5 All of these men were saved. Now, who were the Nicolatians? From the message to the church at Ephesus: --Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.-- Revelation 2:6 From the message to the church at Pergamum: --But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.-- Revelation 2:14-16 --The Nicolaitians are the followers of that Nicholas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. The Nicolaitians lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these persons is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John. It shows that they teach that it is a matter of indifference to practice adultery and to eat things sacrificed to idols-- Irenaeus, 180 A.D. Interestingly enough this sect was around even in his day 80 or 90 years after John wrote Revelation. --John, however, in the Apocalypse is instructed to chastise those persons 'who eat things sacrificed to idols' and 'who commit fornication'. They are even now another sort of Nicolaitians.-- Tertullian, 197 A.D. --Nicolas has been a cause of the widespread combination of these wicked men. He was appointed by the apostles as one of the seven for the diaconate. However, he departed from correct doctrine and was in the habit of inculcating indifference as to both life and food. And when his disciples continued to insult the Holy Spirit, John reproved them in the Apocalypse as being fornicators and partakers of food offered to idols.-- Hyppolytus, 225 A.D. Nicolas fell from grace. One can only hope he repented before he died. Because in the book of Jude verses 8-14 it says 'blackest darkness', the worst parts of Hell, are reserved for men who defile the flesh. (Also see 2 Peter 2:12-17) --We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from life.-- Barnabus, who lived from 70 A.D. to 130 A.D. and not the Barnabus mentioned in the book of Acts. --Let us then practice righteousness so that we may be saved unto the end-- Clement, 150 A.D., but not the Clement of Rome --The apostates and traitors of the church have blasphemed the Lord in their sins. Moreover, they have been ashamed of the name of the Lord by which they were called. These persons, therefore, at the end were lost unto God.-- Hermas, 150 A.D. --It was not to those who are on the outside that he said these things, but to us-- lest we should be cast forth from the kingdom of God, by doing any such thing.-- Irenaeus, 180 A.D. --God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. For only the Father is the one who is able to undo what is done... So even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For at the climax of the drama, he has given up his part-- Clement of Alexandria, 195 A.D. --God has foreseen, that faith-- even after baptism-- would be endangered. He saw that most persons, after obtaining salvation, would be lost again by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.-- Tertullian, 213 A.D. --A man may possess an acquired righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away.-- Origen, 225 A.D. --Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.-- Commadianus, 240 A.D. --It is clear that the devil is driven out in baptism by the faith of the believer. But he returns if the faith should afterwards fail.-- Cyprian, 250 A.D. --There is a need of continual prayer and supplication so that we do not fall away from the heavenly kingdom, as the Jews fell away, to whom this promise had first been given.-- Cyprian, 250 A.D. There are other quotes as well. Overwhelmingly in stark opposition to once-saved-always-saved. I do not know when the eternal security doctrine began, but Scripture does not support it and neither did the early church fathers. With that said, not every single thing the early Christians believed was necessarily true. But the Word of God supports these quotes. But remember as I explained in my previous post here, I'm not advocating works-based Christianity. Once-saved-always-saved, aka eternal security, is a dangerous doctrine of man that will lead many, many people to Hell. |
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_________________
"Sound the alarm Gather the people Gather the elders Let the ministers wail God take back the years that the enemy's stolen Lord You are coming with a holy visitation" from 'Holy Visitation' "Fasting; it's a feast for the soul." |
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Posted on: 2009/12/14 18:51
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